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Jonas Leddington's avatar

Hi Simon, I listened with great interest to your discussion with Claire Giordano. Five months ago I left full-time work and started building with Claude Code. I had zero engineering experience. Now, some 1200 hours later, I am perhaps an interesting test case: can a self-taught builder create production software? Everything you do sounds so familiar to me -- including the wild energetic mornings! -- however I'm doing one thing that's utterly anathema to you: I use agents to do all the debugging and testing. And, I still can't read the code. When I started, I intended to learn. I set Claude up as tutor and guide. It was just far too slow and, with experimentation, I found I could use agents to review agents. I learned to set agents up as "supportive adversaries" to check one another: one as the 'architect' working to my build spec, one as 'builder' in the repo, one as 'sleuth' finding bugs and deviations from best practice.... Now we have a sequence of gates: a pre-work packet to verify the plan premise against the system and to sequence the build with small, sequential debugging surfaces; seven different triggers that force a review of the decisions log, deferral index, code path, etc, on each new build sequence; the ~1730 unit suite tests across the pure core / impure edge, DB-backed tests against local Postres, mutation testing on every seam, grading corpora for anything LLM adjacent, every PR through an adversarial review pass, every fix gets a regression test (66 test files cite numbered dogfood findings), migrations pushed and verified against hosted before merge, and so on. I also learned I had to build epistemic rules that govern both me and the agents: run the thing rather than reason about it; a verdict's provenance must be checked (the harness can lie); a recorded cause is a claim until reproduced; an unstated check is an unmade check. These are QA of the QA -- and every one of them was derived in response to an expensive error. My CLAUDE-md file is a record of these sorts of things. 

So, I wonder -- to your quality and integrity points -- aren't several Fable 5.1 agents working in parallel on different problems across the same code -- each with appropriately structured context -- likely to outperform most engineers in spotting problems? 

Can we imagine a future where appropriately governed agents produce production code that is never human reviewed? Only tested? 

My role has become something like what you called 'conceptual integrity' -- holding the product -- and adjudicating between agents. As you point out, there's a lot of cognitive work involved just staying abreast of the work and making decisions. I say "no" a lot. I say "this not that" and "what about this?" and "is there a cause we need to look at one level down?" I often ask Claude to explain things to me as if to a child. I ask tons of questions. I've come to think the key attributes for the human builder are curiosity and the ability to tolerate lots of ambiguity and uncertainty.

Anyway, I crawled out of my happy Claude hole after five months -- the process has been such a joy! -- and figured I can't be alone in doing this stuff, so I asked Claude: help me find a community that's building in this way. Your name popped up. I attempt to describe my governance process here - https://leddington.substack.com/p/how-a-non-engineer-ships-production-189 -- and you can see a snapshot of the memory architecture I've built here - https://maximus.work/build/.  If this is of any interest whatsoever, I'd love to get you into my repo so we can see what this crazy experiment has wrought! (I'll be terrified to hear your verdict.)

Either way, thanks for your writing. I look forward to following along.

Glen Maisey's avatar

Thanks as always for the nice writeup. On lines of code, something I've been doing is having an LLM go back through all the commits and retrospectively estimating story points (just a very simple skill and a lot of runtime). While still flawed, it does a nicer job than raw lines of code and gives you velocity you can see over time of your repos. Would love to hear your thoughts on the approach.

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